An excellent post by Ralph Sasser. He's hit the nail on the head with those M6 notebook excerpts.
I would like to add this for what it is worth....In my apartment block are many university students. In the common room, where they are found hard at work revising and completing their homework, I happened to come across two students struggling with an English lesson. I offered to assist. It was my first peek at a university created English test paper and quite frankly it was a disgrace. I wrote down the questions word for word - letter for letter)

Two of the many questions posed (as written up by the university "experts" aka as Thai university lecturers with degrees in English) and I quote.....
"Learnning writing experieences"
1. Write on Wen what intresting action you can hav with wen explloring hill regions.
2. Desciibe under 200 sentences how we can wengo flat altter wheel on carr....(unquote)

Incidentally one of the students advised me that his parents were paying 40k a term for his attendance at the university...along with paying for his apartment and living expenses in Bangkok. Of course he will pass with top marks in English.......money talks.

I recently returned from Yala in Southern Thailand. Whilst there I had the pleasure of spending a day at a local primary/intermediate school which caters for students up to 12 years of age. I asked whether they had an English teaching programme in place as part of their curriculum. I received an enthusiastic reply...yes we have. I was then invited to sit in on a lesson or two. Both the Filipino and Thai "English" teachers who conducted the English programme were obviously very nervous at my presence although I had no intention of taking part nor interfering in the lesson - and didn't.

The English lesson was nothing short of a farce (and I am not and did not take the holier than thou attitude in my general appraisal) For a start the very simple worksheets handed to the 12 year old students were saturated with grammatical and spelling errors...along with this were picture sheets compiled by the teachers showing ten different animals written with the Thai and English description for each of them. From the picture sheets - illiphant (elephant) - kanroo (kangaroo) A picture of a turtle had the description 'frog' underneath it. I asked why the school did not employ an English native speaker and was told "we get our two English teachers (the Filipino and the Thai) for the same price as one farang teacher so this way is better for school"

Better for the school....but certainly not better for the student......money issues again. This was not a government school. The pupils pay 8000 baht per annum each in school fees. In the near future the lack of correct and proper learning of the English language throughout Thailand is going to hit the economy, business, and many walks of Thai life like an out of control steam train.

Peter Batchelor

I am responding to a letter dated July 3, 2010 from Apso “Is the writing on the wall for foreign teachers in government schools?”

The writer states he was told by a recruiter, in no uncertain terms, that the MOE isn’t happy with the foreign teachers and that Thai teachers do a very good job of teaching English. He continues to say that the only reason foreign teachers are here in Thailand teaching is because of their accent(s).

Let’s look at the reality. Thai teachers do teach grammar and vocabulary, although I don’t see how considering most can’t even speak a coherent sentence in English. Most of the ones I have worked with in the eight years teaching here in Thailand have a difficult time responding to “Good morning. How are you?”

If the Thai teachers do a “very good” job of teaching English as the recruiter states, why are the test scores low and most students that complete M6 unable to say much more than “Good morning teacher”? Of course there are exceptions, but not many compared to the number of students.

It’s common knowledge that the reason we are here teaching is simply MONEY - as with everything in Thailand. We make the schools and the government too much money for them to get rid of us. I personally do not believe they care about education or if they do, it is very low in the pecking order after Buddha, the temple, sports, competitions, teacher’s day, sports day, etc.

Until the Thai government gets serious about education, Thailand will stay a third world country as it has for many years. The students have no accountability or responsibilities, so they skip classes at will. No one cares or even checks to see where they are. With a “no fail” policy and no discipline policy, what is the incentive for the students to come to class?

The following are some excerpts from a upper level M6 student’s notebook that a Thai teacher wrote, “exseleant work” at the last school I worked in.

Dialog 1 (in part) Laura- What a beautifully day.
Manit- Sure that a good idea

Dialog 2 (in part) John- I go shop and no open
Juila- That to bed

Dialog 3 (in part) Clerk- One monent, I will arrange him
Wangla- Yes, could you tell me what call breakfast ready?

Dialog 4 (in part) Wangla- No, I to go to market with my mather.

Keep in mind that this was an upper level M6 student. Obviously, I think it is clear as to why we are here. Trying to “unteach” what the Thai teachers have taught wrong is one of the most frustrating aspects of teaching here.

So, to hopefully answer Apso’s question, I do not believe that, “The writing is on the wall at the government schools” now or anytime in the near future. This is a money hungry country, but the Thais aren’t stupid enough to get rid of the foreign teachers. We make too much money for them. But, then again, this IS Thailand and anything is possible.

Ralph Sasser

How do the teachers working in Thailand handle direct copying and obvious plagiarism? I work at the number one university in Thailand and there is no academic honesty policy for a course that teaches almost 5,000 students a year. When I report instances of plagiarism, the issue gets buried. When I request a copy of the academic honesty policy and the plagiarism policy, my requests are dismissed. Is there a happy medium to be achieved between the inherent ethical principles of the English language while teaching in a country that follows the Confucian ideal of "Copy the Master"?
I really think this should be a major section of ajarn.com that all teachers can reference to avoid constant problems.Thank you

Mike

Yesterday i was told in no uncertain terms by a director of a teacher agency that the Ministry of Education in Thailand is very disappointed in the performance of foreign teachers. they are considered to be lazy and arrogant. I was told that the only reason that foreign teachers are teaching in Thailand was because of their accent. not because of their grammar skills or teaching ability. I was also told that Thai teachers are quite capable of teaching English without the help of foreigners.

Apso

Recently, I applied to an advertisement on your website for a secondary school teaching post. The ad posted on the ajarn site website, stated the school is searching for secondary school teachers.

A few days after I applied, I got a call from the school asking me to come in for an interview. They asked me if I wanted to do a demonstration class of any kind. They gave me the option of doing such a demonstration class in any discipline I wanted (math, science, social studies, to name a few of the choices). At the time, I thought this seemed a little strange since surely they would have had a specific need for a specific kind of teacher rather than every kind of teacher. At any rate, I chose science. So I was to do a demonstration class for 10th grade students for a science class.

The school is not exactly in a centralized, convenient location. Its on the outer-fringes of Bangkok and not near any mass transit routes at all. Therefore, I drove my scooter all the way from Payatai in the middle of downtown to the school; a 1 hour+ trip through dangerous traffic in the heat in the middle of the day.

When I got to the school, I filled out several application forms and an older man, presumably a teacher at the school, copied my degree and TEFL paper. He interviewed me and asked me questions about my resume. Then, after about 30 minutes of detailed interrogation, he announced that actually the school was not hiring for a secondary school teacher at all. Apparently, they only had one position available, and it was teaching kindergarten. As I have neither experience for nor desire to teach kindergarten, I politely refused. Following this, he kept on going as if he hadnt heard me refuse-- he told me the next step would be to see the director, fill out more papers, etc. I reiterated to him at least 3 times that I was not interested and there are many teachers who would rather teach kindergarten but I'm not one of them. He told me the school has trouble finding teachers to teach kindergarten. I asked him why they don't just place an ad for the job they need filled rather than one for a secondary school teacher. He told me, "sorry, they have only one ad-form for all their job postings" (which, as you can see from the ad they posted on your website, is specifically for secondary school teachers.)

I find it rather funny that this school has the idea they can get a difficult-to-fill post filled by advertising for it under false pretenses of another job title... do they actually think we job seekers are dumb enough to just say, "OK, that's fine, even though I wanted to be a rocket scientist, poop scooping will be just fine.."? But at the same time, it's really annoying and for a remotely-located school such as this one, its a real time-waster... Anyway, thanks for reading.

Phil / ajarn.com says - Thank you Nathan for getting in touch and keeping us informed on this matter. I can appreciate the total waste of time and energy involved. If you send me the contact details of the person you dealt with, I will gladly give them a call and see what can be done. At the very least, we need to let them know that this kind of recruitment practice is unacceptable.

Nathan Busch

Ok, This will be short. I think he is trying to say is stop talking about it and do something about it. Put up or Shut up. If you work for a company that discriminates, then stop working for that company. What if all us White guys stopped working in Thailand, who would they hire?...Yeh, I know... Asians, but you get my point I hope. Ok Nick, thank you for sharing and I will put up. Thanks Adam
(Phil - can we consider this particular topic now closed. Cheers)

Adam (English Teacher, Chaing Mai)

Nick,
I am assuming you come from an English speaking Western country, because the only errors in your written English are due to direct recording of spoken English, which is nothing really worth criticising you about. So I assume that you come from a place with freedom of speech and the right to be heard.

As the posts you so vehemently berate do not infringe the law of Thailand or anywhere, then what gives you the right to request censorship? Isn't Ajarn.com a place to air your views? Also, hasn't it ever occured to your egotistical blinkered view of the world, that some people are new to Thailand and Ajarn.com and so those posting are not "flogging a dead horse" to them, it is news. Furthermore, Ajarn.com is accessed by many thinking of coming to Thailand, so I would imagine, that the wider the range of views, even those from the inferior people at "SelfishWeakMindedIgnorant.com" would serve to give a more balanced picture of what the prospective teachers might expect. Or did you think everyone would be able to start their own business and be one of life's winners at MrExecutiveTrainer.com like you? By the way have the British Council accredited your school yet?

Of course, maybe you feel Ajarn.com is for the select long-termers who KNOW so much about LOS, and the stupid newcomers need to know their place. Maybe you feel threatened by talented newcomers, who might venture out to start their own business and become a competitor of yours?

Finally, if there is indeed racism and other forms of discrimination in schools, wouldnt it be the right thing to expose it, again and again and again, as these things need time to register and even more time to change. I agree with your views about Thailand being divided, but one reason it is divided is that maybe no one has stood up to say what is wrong.

Anyway Nick, enjoy your executive life style, if you want posts about diving, purchasing a Lear Jet or how to decorate your river view condo balcony so it resembles home I suggest you try other websites, and leave Ajarn.com (translation lecturer or teacher) for those interested in education issues.

Bobtheblackpoet

In reply to the pompous letter of 'self-made' businessman Nick: if you don't like the blogs on this site, just don't read them and don't criticize them, unless you have a valid point. I for one think the bloggers on this site are doing a hell of a job every month. More than can be said of your boring and useless rantings every five years. Btw, there are more 'vs.' than described in the blog: try boasting, arrogant, over-exaggrating expat with inflated egos vs integrated foreigners who try to help not only students but also their colleagues.

James Green

Hi Nick,

couldn't pass by this little gem of yours without responding. You're like so many people you meet here who think that, if it isn't happening to them, then it doesn't exist like the tree falling down in Sweden that nobody hears.

The fact is that racism, discrimination, ageism, subjective reporting and a host of other things need to be reported as often as possible because they have not been eradicated from society and probably never will, so at least this makes people aware of the problem and acts as a kind of "checks and balances" corrector in some senses even if only in a small way.

I would say to you in response to your letter that you don't need to read these blogs if you have no interest or compassion for others, and you certainly come across to me as a selfish twat when you open your first paragraph and talk about the following:

"I have my own company now and have been working successfully for many years. My company provides me with an expat executive level salary which is more than enough for me to live off of. "

Money, money, money. But then you end the same paragraph with the following:

"I’m still learning, but at the same time I believe I have a good handle on Thailand and the Thai culture."

You clearly haven't a clue about people living in Thailand: the impoverished, discriminated by age, or race, or by skewed reporting, and wouldn't know the feelings of your average Thai if they jumped up and bit you on the nose! You talk like one of those high court judges constantly berated in the UK for giving out inconsistent sentences: someone completely out of touch with the ordinary working man or woman. I can almost picture you now: peering down at me with pince-nez glasses, tut-tutting your disapproval.

For you, what matters is how much you have, so anything that discusses people who don't have it is largely irrelevant and therefore, for you, a form of navel gazing. "I have also heard and seen with my own two eyes the issue with all the vs’s. It has stopped me in some cases and it has not in others. I’m still here and I can still show you the money." Yes, yes, here we go again – the money God!

“A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.” (Proverbs 28:20)

“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” (1 Timothy 6:9-10)”

You say, "We all know that news reporting isn’t fair or always objective." Is that so? So if we all know this, why do we expect our news agencies to be fair, impartial and, above all, objective? Is this something that is unreasonable to expect? Coming from your mouth, it would appear to be so.

You also said the following:

"How many vs’s do we really need to know? We will always have vs’s around. As long as we have selfish, weak minded, ignorant people around, they will always use these vs’s to promote themselves and their ideas..."

The only selfish individual I see here is you who has the temerity to lord it over the rest of us, letting us know in the first paragraph that (a) you own your own company (whoopee!), (b) you draw a high salary (obviously compared to us plebs!), and (c) you are some kind of high powered executive type (pls wait a min while I prostrate myself before you in obeisance!)

Ah, I see the logic fairy has got to you here and warped your brain a bit:

"However, if those who want to talk about these subjects so much, as if they believe it’s wrong, really want to do something to change this issue, then quit working for those companies, schools and organizations who believe in this crap or post those type of ads. Ah hah, got you…I know you won’t quit and because of that…it will never stop. So please stop pretending that you don’t like it or care."

Don't you think that most if not all the people you mention would quit if they could afford to? You really think they are staying in these crummy jobs because they want to or don't have the cahoneys to leave? Unlike you, oh special one, they do not have a high-powered salary to fall back on, so paallease...spare us the faulty logic as it only goes to show how out of step you are with reality.

Your advice appears to be accept it all which is, ironically, very Thai/Buddhist:

"Also, history has spelled this all out before, and we all already know what will happen, so why keep talking about it."

Guess you're some kind of "maw doo" and can see into the future. The rest of us mere mortals have to make do with going to sleep and hoping the new day brings us something nice.

"I drive a car and the wheels on my car go round and round. How many times do you want me to discuss that subject with you? I hope zero. "

Fortunately, there are a lot of people who will not accept inequality, racism, ageism and their ilk, but then I wouldn't expect you to understand as there's no financial gain it for you; no money in it right? Why should you care? You have everything and are leading the perfect life, right?

best

Tom

P.S. Your English could do with a little brushing up too as I couldn't fathom what this was supposed to mean - "More than the average white, native, American, British, blonde, blue eyed teacher out there." For the record, this is a dependent clause and, therefore, is a sentence fragment - in other words, an incomplete sentence which therefore has no meaning.

Tom Tuohy

Hello Phil, You may remember me from my article you posted a few years back..."Show me the money". I have my own company now and have been working successfully for many years. My company provides me with an expat executive level salary which is more than enough for me to live off of. All of my business is from repeat customers/clients or referrals. My customers/clients ranged from active and sweet two year olds to school/university level students to Business/Executive level Management to government officials who report directly to the authority in this country. I've lived in Thailand for long time and have worked for schools as well as corporate companies in senior level management. I'm still learning, but at the same time I believe I have a good handle on Thailand and the Thai culture.

Now to my points: I have from time to time read several of the articles post on your website and many are both interesting and good, but at the same time, I think sometimes we are beating the same dead horse over and over and over again without any real value or change. We all know that news reporting isn't fair or always objective. Wow...do I really need to say this to educated people. Secondly, white vs. black vs. Asian vs. non-Asian vs. American vs. British vs. native vs. non-native vs. the world vs. alien. How many vs's do we really need to know? We will always have vs's around. As long as we have selfish, weak minded, ignorant people around, they will always use these vs's to promote themselves and their ideas, but let them do it on their own time and website. We can call it, SelfishWeakMindedIgnorant.com, and if we want to read about all their vs's...we can just go there.

I have also heard and seen with my own two eyes the issue with all the vs's. It has stopped me in some cases and it has not in others. I'm still here and I can still show you the money. More than the average white, native, American, British, blonde, blue eyed teacher out there. Can't we all just get along and stop talking about all this stuff. Put it on that website I mention and post and talk about it all day/life long. However, if those who want to talk about these subjects so much, as if they believe it’s wrong, really want to do something to change this issue, then quit working for those companies, schools and organizations who believe in this crap or post those type of ads. Ah hah, got you...I know you won't quit and because of that...it will never stop. So please stop pretending that you don't like it or care.

How many times have you heard a person say something about another person because of race, color, or any negative reason beyond their control and those persons are still your friends and you still hang out with them, I'm not talking about family...you can't get rid of them even if you wanted too, I’ve tried. Get real, those of us who have to deal with these issues every day, really don't need to hear about it from people who don't deal with them. We don't even need to hear about them from people who do have to deal with them. We just need them to stop and the only way that will occur is by action no talking about it all day/life long.

Also, I lived through the last few weeks and have heard every opinion under the sun. I have both heard and have seen with my own two eyes a lack of objectivity and basically lying on both sides. Wow...amazing Thailand. I knew there was something to that name.

Regarding the news reporting objectivity, get real. Whether it was a red vs. yellow or green vs. black shirt, there is a great division between those who have and those who don't have in this country. If that was dealt with then more than likely, we wouldn’t have had the events over the last two months or last year. Look at China, they had Tiananmen Square. They dealt with it in the right way. They pump money into the economy and as long as people are able to take care of themselves and their families. Go to school and get an education, most Chinese have forgotten all about it. It may not be right, but you have to admit it worked. The class system here is really bad. I've heard people refer to other people as uneducated dogs or over-educated pigs. What would you like to be...neither. I read an article last week that was written in 2009. It stated that the different in the have and have not’s in western countries is about 0.04 - 0.06, in developing countries it is 0.07 - 0.08, in counties where there are currently active civil wars, it is 0.15 - 0.18. Currently, in Thailand it is 0.12 - 0.15. So with this said, it should be no surprise about what happened last month or even last year.

So which way is Thailand going and what is it's future. It also referred to an economic model that developing countries use to close this gap. The article stated that although initially to gap widens at first, it eventually moves closer and everyone begins to enjoy life. However, most countries peak, then begin to close the gap, but when they apply this model to Thailand, it was supposed to have peaked in 1994…yes that’s right 16 years ago. Well. Numbers don't lie and the rule of cause and effect still apply. Remember your boy scout training and "Be Prepared"...to run, it may get a bit hotter in this country. Also, history has spelled this all out before, and we all already know what will happen, so why keep talking about it. I drive a car and the wheels on my car go round and round. How many times do you want me to discuss that subject with you? I hope zero.

Finally, and this is for you Phil. I'm assuming you are one of those people who believe this type of activity is wrong. So if this is what you really think, then why don't you not post those type of ads and post a few more faces of color on the front, not side, of your website. I know... business. It was just a thought; nobody wants a real change, just want to feel good about talking about it. Enjoy the chatter, because that's the only thing it is, and for the people you are talking about...well, we've heard it all before over and over and over again. You know that dead horse.

PS. I know this may be chatter too, but I try to make it only once every 5 or so years.

Nick