Dear Ronald ('How did salaries drop so much - Postbox 28th March)
It's called supply and demand. Six years ago there weren't half as many so called, "English Teachers", in Thailand as there are now. Also, schools were running scared of the new regulations that were implemented at that time concerning qualifications. But, as enforcement has relaxed, even the most prestigious schools are willing to overlook and accept a Khao San road diploma. This has opened the door for all of the party tourists to extend their stay in the Kingdom by simply having another beer while their diploma, complete with transcripts, is printed up by a street vendor. Thus resulting in a glut of candidates willing to work for nothing more than a non-immigrant B. And of course the, "Language Centres", that sell diplomas that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, are enjoying a new flood of cheap, smiling, white faces to sell to their client/students.

Phil says - It's always dangerous to come out with a statement such as 'six years ago, there weren't half as many English teachers here as there are now" when you have no statistics to draw on. And there are certainly no statistics available for the number of foreign teachers working in Thailand at any given time. I actually disagree with you completely. I think six years ago was the 'halcyon period' for English teachers in Thailand. There was none of this culture course nonsense or the need to pass impossible tests. Literally anyone could get a teaching job. Not many folks would say that it has now become easier for teachers, especially the unqualified, to secure a teaching position. I think you are viewing things from your own rather distorted perspective and ignoring the big picture.

Ajarnallo

I first came to Thailand nearly 6 years ago. My first job after I got my CELTA started at 39,000 baht. I've subsequently held posts paying 35,000, 38,000, 42,500, 38,000 and 40,000 baht (in order of the post). Overall, my average has been nearly 39K.

I went home for six months and have now been back in Thailand for five months. As I look for my new job, I am astonished at how many jobs are paying around 30,000 only. I know the job posting says, "At least 30,000." But after I applied and got a response from the few, they informed me that the job starts at 30,000. And so often when I click a job posting to read more about it, that "at least" in the heading turns out to say "around 30,000," or "starts at 30-32,000," etc. I interviewed last week with one of these schools hoping it was a typo. The guy offered me a contract at 30,000. When I queried him about it, he actually said, "Yeah, but we give you accident coverage up to 20,000 baht, so if you get hurt, it will make a big difference in your pay." What? So I need to suffer an injury to add to my pay? And I'm not talking about just a few postings. It seems nearly all (estimate 85-90%) of the postings I read have 30K listed.

What in the blazes has happened to the salaries? Yes, 30K is a lot by Thai standards. But the level of education in this country is minimal and it is largely a traditional economy with low expectations, so the low-average wage is expected. But 40K is not a particularly high salary for someone with a proper degree, a CELTA, professional experience going back over 15 years, and over five years of teaching experience in Thailand. I didn't come to Thailand to save money for retirement. I didn't come expecting to live high on the hog. But I do expect a reasonable wage based on my education and experience.

I guess it's time to look at Japan, Korea, China, and other places to get some respect. Although I'm not 60, like our friend Kevin in the letter below, perhaps I'll be joining him as he widens his search for a job that will respect him and his abilities.

Ronald

Sadly, the older you get, the harder it seems to be able to get a job. Its crazy... all those years of experence and life skills just being ignored. How about setting up an education facility, with obvious suitable educational and business support ( a few independant UK schools and universities) have looked at this idea to make use of the skills that many older teachers have.

We all become unemployable at some stage. Myself I have worked freelance now for well over 10 years. Its given me a great income when times are good, but a little more tough when times are hard. I'm considered totally unemployable by many companies, because I have seen life from the other side. I have become a threat to all those who just loaf their way through life. Its a case of maybe I will ask to many difficult questions, or know too many answers. I'm not a brain washed product of a company HR or PR society. I can think for myself and actually make improvements....Oh that's dangerous... Bangkok dangerous even!

For Kevin.... sorry, it looks like you will have to start your own business, or go freelance or just move on... I hear Korea, China and Japan have a need for the more senior teacher, plus they pay very well. Good luck all the same.

Ian BKK

It seems that it is almost impossible for me to gain another teaching position in Thailand (in government schools and universities) as I have recently turned 60. This is due to a Dept of Education rule. There's nothing I can do about this, but what I want to complain about is that it took me quite some time to find out. Why? Because all of my applications were greeted with silence - i.e. employers simply did not bother replying to my applications. I understand that in Thai culture it's difficult to say "no" but this is ridiculous, not to mention somewhat distressing. I am committed to living in Thailand (I have a Thai wife) but as I have no other income, what can I do? If anyone knows a way out of this dilemma, I'd love to hear about it.

Kevin O'Donnell

As in all western countries, English is taught for profit in Thailand, and advertising of any product world-wide uses beauty and youth to promote products.
However, if you want an education in any subject, it is only logical to learn from an expert that has been doing said subject all of their life. One of my biggest pet peeves is the fact that English is presently being taught by so called, "teachers", that can not even use the language properly themselves. Of course one must recognise that this is due to the age old market determiner of supply and demand. As there are more English teaching positions in Thailand then qualified teachers, of course many institutions have no recourse but to employ substandard instructors. Students are customers and as such they demand quality products for their money. Is it really so surprising then that an employer would want to hire the most qualified candidates for any poisition?

Ajarnallo

I would like to chip into this debate and just put down a few of the thoughts I have in writing.
Surely there must be the element in institutions where English is taught for profit in Thailand, that they want to adorn their business prospectus with a young and handsome or beautiful white face. Look at advertising material from the British Council, the websites for schools in Western countries on the net, and even the most popular commercial EFL textbooks. Plenty of such faces feature there as well. Even if they are not white, they are still usually young and beautiful. It is standard practice because beauty appeals to the eye of the beholder, and because beauty thus sells.

There is surely the element too that these education-for-profit institutions care not for the actual quality of education they provide, or that it at least plays second fiddle to looking good. And look, particularly in Thailand, is still very much the state that society is in. If true substance counted for much there would have to be a major social upheaval – because their owners and operators probably do not know anything about what constitutes quality education (again, Thailand all over) They are fixated with getting bums on seats. So yeah, who would not want to complain about this. There is definitely injustice afoot. For sure, they would pass over someone who was a native-born citizen of an English speaking country and an excellent teacher on the grounds of their appearance, in much the same way as they are going to rob mums and dads blind, and milk kids like cows by opening candy shops at the front of the school.

On the other hand, the law of averages dictates that there is some advantage in going for the young white person. Which is something we do not hear a lot about. Scientific enlightenment – some famous scientific wit, I cannot recall who, called enlightenment, or, as Jared Diamond puts it, ‘the shift from speculation to rationalisation’, that ‘little thing that happened a couple of hundred years ago that a lot of people have not heard much about’, or words to that effect, 55 - has brought about profound change in Western society, not least in terms of the quality of education. This change for the good, in terms of knowledge, at least, has accelerated since the advent of the information age. You pick white, and you pick young, and you are, if fathoming other indicators of teacher quality is beyond you, in a way maximising your chances of picking someone who is a native speaker of English who has a modern Western education.

This is surely what the parents of Thailand are thinking when they discriminate in this way. Not all the people who cry ‘racism’ and ‘ageism’ are being entirely reasonable themselves, are they, the cynic in me demands the concept be at least lent a little consideration. In regards to the ‘ageism’ thing in particular, yeah, the term was coined originally to describe how employable people can dip out on getting a job because of their age – but in all fairness to young people (and I am 40, if you wonder), does not discrimination on the basis of age for the most part work the other way in society? And is there not great injustice afoot when you think of all the people who were not life-long learners, and who are representative of pre-information age and far more ignorant times – who are steeped in the mores of more primitive states of society – who stand over young, well educated people, and perpetually find fault with them to bolster their own very, very false feelings of superiority? As if it does not happen! It is a central pillar of primitive human society that ‘age is wisdom’…

Finally here, there is the element too that Thai people are racist. Black is bad, to not possess the physiology of the ruling class is bad. The mould you were born in in many ways dictates your quality in society, rather than the nature of your intelligence (what you have learned). Again, they are in that state of society where to even consider the injustice of this is to ‘kid leuk’, or think deeply, and by association with this term in the Thai mind think too much, and be in need of a good cup of hemlock. For most people, of course, not all, just as it is in the West. They are light years away from actually creating and, more to the point, enforcing policy that is going to shake people out of their stupor. So this is definitely unfair as well. No wonder the victims complain.

Fair go

Maybe my point of Hooters was lost in the fact that I used Hooters. I'll give you another example. A local school in America was hiring a Spanish teacher. They had the audacity to put in their ad that they wanted a teacher who was from Spain. That just made me so angry. That meant, just because I wasn't a sexy sleek man from Spain, that I couldn't have the job?

So, I filed a complaint with the school district, and I forced the school to change their ad. It now read, "looking for Spanish teacher, all welcome to apply" Unfortunately, I still didn't get the job even though I have a PHD in Spanish from Harvard University. Seems like they were really serious about wanting a native speaker of Spanish and I just wasted my time, and so did a lot of other people who needlessly applied, and of course so did the poor HR staff who had to read through thousands of resumes needlessly.

So, once again I got angry. I complained to the school board that if the school only wants a native speaker of Spanish from Spain, then they should put that in the job advert and not waste my time. I then held a small riot and burned down three houses and smashed some cars. I also stood out side the local Spanish restaurant in town and hurled insults at al those inside.

Joe hoeson

Hmmm... now that's a Thai-English saying eh? But really it is up to you not just the educational facility that is posting up jobs. A good teaching job is not just about the money, there are plenty at 30,000 or less a month, its a two way situation. A school is looking for a teacher who will improve the educational standard of its students and fit in with the cultural and social aspect of the place. A teacher is looking for..... well that's personal, so what is the problem?

We can all read what we want into a job advert, actually that's quite good marketing, get the maximum response and choose the best for the situation. However also we teachers can also look and laugh at what we see posted on the jobs page.

What suits me as a teaching job, is very different from the next teacher. We all have different needs. Whilst money is not the first thing I look at in a job ( I'm lucky enough to have another income) there is a value I put on my work and time. For me facilities available, support from the school, the welcome I get when I arrive and how other teachers mix with each other, plus its important to know that the school will support you if there are ever any disruptive students. (I've know teachers who have had students take a knife to them and the school did nothing about it) it might be an extreme, but just knowing that the school is there to help and support a teacher is very important. Some help with accommodation, others provide visas ,health insurance, transport assistance.... the list can be endless.

If you can get a class room assistant thats a bonus, and for one I'd be willing to take a little less salary if it meant I had an assistant. They are a great help to a teacher and more often than you both become good friends, so the students benefit all the more.

So come on lets not get all pc, that is one thing that has gone to far in the UK. Of course cut the racism out, but don't get offended at simple things like job adverts. We all make choices every day and so what if one place wants a three-legged, one eyed, twenty foot tall NES teacher with pink hair, maybe because that is in line with all the other staff they employ!

I've been turned down for plenty of jobs, and I've turned down many before and after the interview, just don't take it to heart, no job is for life anymore, these things constantly change. Remember you choose where you work, if the school or education facility does not match your needs or expectations just say no, its better for both.

Ian Bkk

This is in response to "You give customers what they want - it’s a business" (Postbox 17th March 2011). Comparing the hiring process of Hooters to a school in Thailand is not only illogical but also utterly tasteless. Yes, some schools are businesses, but some are also government schools. They don't need to market or advertise to get more students. There's no profit even if they hire a Hooters waitress as a teacher. You are probably forgetting that education is a basic human right, not a business. That is why there should be no discrimination when it comes to hiring teachers. Yes, I agree that native English speakers should be more "preferred" by schools to teach English, but as long as he/she has the proper teaching credentials and experience, not some dude who used to manage a Hooters franchise. So if there's no luck finding a reputable NES teacher, why not hire a competitive NNES teacher?

Again, if you put "NES Only" and not "NES preferred" then you are limiting yourself to handful of NES applicants, plus a large chunk of unqualified NNES who are too ignorant to understand "NES Only." If you try changing it to "NES Preferred" then you will still get the same amount of NES applicants, same big chunk of ignorant NNES, but this time, with another handful of NNES but competitive enough to teach like a NES.

But will all those emails fill up your inbox? Yes they will. Would it consume your time to go through all of them? Yes it would, and you should. If your job is to choose the right candidate, then choose wisely by going through each and every resume. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

What is wrong is making a comparison between Hooters and Thai schools. Hooters require big chested ladies because they effectively capture the male market while schools hire teachers, NES or not, as long as you're an effective teacher. Students or parents may demand skin color, but they don't know how to run a school. A school with competitive NNES teachers can be more profitable in the long run than a school with NES teachers that are incompetent.

It may be silly for a Thai school not to place "NES Only" in their job ads, but education is not a silly thing, and if they really want their kids to be educated like the rest of the world, they should start learning how to look beyond skin color.

Sar C. Astic

Dear “job ads are not racist” (Postbox 15th March 2011)
While I appreciate your letter, your example of being discriminated at Hooters for not being a sexy young female is not equitable with my discrimination here. That is the restaurant industry in America and this is education. There is a very big difference between the two. Things are the way they are, but it doesn’t make them OK. You cannot justify the discrimination here by saying it happens everywhere and it is not a big deal. While there is nothing that cannot be changed about the way hiring is done here, it is still wrong.

What I find even more disheartening is comments made like these in the letter from “job ads are not racist” - “If you don’t like it, then go to another company or country where things are just.” I have had people say that to me at job interviews. People who say this to immigrants are cold and callous. It is ironic this statement was said to my father when he was first adjusting to his life in America and now to me as I try and work in Thailand. It is an amazing world isn’t it?
But no matter what situations I encounter here, I still and will always love Thailand.

Multi racial American