I think James has hit a sore spot with many readers here. These whiners and crybabies can't or won't save any of their (meager) salary and expect to be taken care of as if they were in their home country (usually a welfare state that is now on the verge of bankruptcy).James is right though; foreigners in Thailand have to learn to plan and take care of themselves. Just one thing said here that I don't agree with: do readers here really think Thais 'are taken care of' by their social welfare system? Maybe the civil servants, but definitely not the millions of factory workers and farmers (and don't even get me started about the exploitation of foreign laborers such as the Burmese). These poor devils have the worst of both worlds and can't even complain about it. Foreigners in Thailand should save for a rainy day - or a flood in this case.

Hippolyte

OK, I realize my comments aren’t attracting too many favourable comments, so let’s be a little more positive and pragmatic. We’re all here in Asia and all experiencing different problems. Personally I enjoyed living in Thailand but hated the work. Yes, we were/are abused and taken advantage of, but at the end of the day we all chose to come here and we can all choose to leave.

I will definitely go back to Thailand, my home and family are there, but having said that, I doubt if I will work there again so that’s something we have in common. The reason I won’t is exactly for the same reasons many have stated. I’m not rich, I simply saw what would happen if I lived the good life and through injury, illness or ‘Acts of God’ the same thing happened to me as is happening to some of you guys now. I made provisions for myself against that happening and now simply query why I did and some of you didn’t.

I got out and have previously stated that I’d recommend others do the same if they’re unhappy with the way things are going. Thailand is not the only country in Asia and the path that they’re following is their decision and we don’t have to be a part of it.

You will always read negative and subjective reports about anywhere and especially Thailand. I’ve only been in China a short while, but from what I have seen I’m staying. Perhaps it does boil down to a question of attitude and perception; what we expect against what life is really like. There isn’t any point going on about Thai bosses, corruption and contracts. My point is that people move on and take responsibility for themselves. Perhaps again we’re too used to our own culture in which we seek to find blame in others for our own failings and ‘demand’ that we all be treated equally. I read between the lines and find a sort of ‘shock’ or incredulous approach to Thailand and again my point is that we accept it and learn to look after ourselves. I could go on the ajarn forum and find the same numpties bawling, swearing and abusing each other; the same sort of people who I would expect to be hostile to Thailand, but who it wouldn’t occur to, to leave. Try China as a last resort, but be aware that life here is even more controlled than Thailand and here you do really have to stand on your own two feet. I wish you all the best.

James

In response to James' two letters on the 25th November, I really could not believe what I read. I had to take 24 hours just too cool down. Are we working in Stalin's Gulags? Is the job of a teacher worse than a soldier in the front line? Soldiers get paid at the end of the month! And according to you teachers should not get paid? I do agree that it is not ideal to come to work in Thailand without much savings, nor should one not try to save for a rainy day. However, two months without pay is around 60-70,000 baht in saved money that needs to be used (rent, relocation - to escape the floods, food etc.).

In Thailand there are teachers with family and those who get paid 15,000 baht a month (who have to spend most of the salary to survive - without even entertaining themselves). 60-70,000 baht, used from what might have taken a year or two to save, just to go back to a school that has already received the government funding (for government schools), and all fees for the allotted foreign teachers, and is not paying the teacher? Where did that money go? And they were laughing too?

Using your same logic that the teacher is to blame, I state it is the school to blame (for private schools)! Surely the rich boss should have saved up money to survive this “rainy day”? That rich boss made a ton of money off the foreign teachers before. At the end of the day, the fat cat hopes to make more from the sweat of the foreign teacher in the future too – so, keeping the workers fed and alive might just ensure they are there to contribute towards the boss’s new Mercedes.

As for Thailand not being a socialist EU style state that takes care of people, if you are legal, you pay 750 Baht a month in social insurance – yes, the foreigners pay it too (and can claim on it) so if you pay it then you are entitled to it. There are also labour laws. However, for those that are happy to accept slavery, and your contract does sound a bit like that, then be happy as a slave – your posts indicate that you are!

Mr Grumpy

In response to James (The demise of our socialist dreams, Postbox 25th November) the fact of the matter is that the wages the teachers are being paid (i.e. teachers that look for jobs on ajarn) are barely enough to survive on. And please spare us the “you can live in a 5k a month room” speech. Foreigners who are serious about living and teaching in Thailand are not interested in living like Thais. We don’t want to live on thirty baht meals and we are not interested in drinking Chang all night on the porch with 18-25 year old Thai guys. Is it so bad we want a Krispy Kreme from Siam Paragon from time to time or want to purchase a nice shirt to wear to work that costs 1000 baht?

We all know that 30-40k is barely enough to live in Bangkok where the overwhelming majority of teaching jobs are located. So when you speak of saving your money and standing on your own two feet you should reference what working poor means in the West. It means people have jobs and still cannot eat, pay their rent and their utilities. This is commonplace in the UK and the US.

Compound that with living in a society that tolerates you rather than invites you and it makes things very difficult. Your ultra conservative attitude toward the plight of other foreigners here that have suffered as a result of the flooding is exactly the type of attitude that has led to millions protesting and camping out in capital cities all over the Western world.

Those people protesting are not asking for your socialist utopia as you describe it. Rather they just want jobs and to be treated fairly. That’s all the foreign teachers in Thailand are asking. All the teachers know that the Thai teachers are getting assistance and the agencies are still going to get their money. And we as foreign teachers don’t have Uncle Bob or Aunt Sarah to live with and feed us because our place is flooded. We have no place to go.

Just because Thais decide that they do not want to have a socialist agenda (your assessment James) does not mean we as Westerners living in the Wild, Wild West that is Thailand, have to do the same amongst ourselves. And what does a socialist agenda mean really in our respective Western countries? It means the governments we put in power and pay exorbitant taxes to will serve and help us in our time of need.

Foreigners here in Thailand have only one support system - ourselves. Your “I am better than the other foreigners because I have money” attitude is a facade. You are not better than any of us. Thais do not care about you and every foreigner living here knows this. And in your time of peril and despair you, like other foreigners, will seek out the help of your embassy. By the way, these embassies who will assist you are the same nations where socialist agendas make it so that if you are in trouble and in need in a foreign land they will assist you.

And is your statement that Thais do not have a socialist safety net true? Your statement is the furthest thing from the truth. All day long you can watch television and a large percentage of what they show is the Thai government out helping Thais whether it is now or five years ago!

God forbid you will be unable to pay your rent and eat because of no fault of your own. It would serve you right if instead of someone helping you they would show you the extreme right views you are spouting here on Ajarn.

Vick Mackey

In response to James letter (Food for thought, Postbox 25th November) As far as I'm aware the EU would not 'look after' a citizen of another country, even a citizen of the EU. What is it you do with your 30/40 or 50k baht a month? Well I never got to that stage so I can't comment. Do you think China is any different? Well one would hope so. The infrastructure should be and I'm avoiding Shenzhen as it sits on a river delta, though I can't count for typhoons of course.

Do you think you can come here with 1,000 baht straight off the plane, never have a problem and just live the good life? I sympathize, but if you intend to live from pay day to pay day, (and just concentrate on having a good time in between) then surely the financial position you’re in is yours and not anyone else’s?

Well there is more to this than meets the eye. In my case I was on the dole in London and had I not taken a decision to move, I would have been dead there too. I knew I had a greater chance of work in Asia. My bank of 30 years would not loan me for interim costs e.g. deposit - so I funded myself out of my savings. But then I got hit by a series of events; having to buy on onward ticket for the visa run and forking out two months deposit for a condo - some or all of which I might not get back. As you say we have no rights here. Some of it is my fault but I got put off going to China initially by reading too many 'negative' forum posts.

Don’t you ever think you’re going to get sick, get older or just for any other reason be unemployed in Asia? In other words, have you ever thought beyond your next pay check and what might happen if it doesn’t materialize? Yes James but in my case it is a case of starting from scratch (in China) and hoping that it all works out. Food for thought indeed.

Kelvin

To Aaron (the guy with the degree in comparative literature)
Hi Aaron, you will need to get in touch with me before I put your 'letter' in the ajarn Postbox. To be honest, the letter was a bit too long and dare I say it, a little 'heavy' in paragraphs. I would like to see it edited and simplified if possible. Can you contact me at philip@ajarn.com and I can send you the original post back.

Phil / ajarn.com

Just a bit about myself so you get some perspective. I worked in Thailand for two years during the mid 2000's. I was at a school in Bangkok. I'd come to Thailand for a change having worked 4 solid years in South Korea. I quickly noticed the differences in how I was treated by school's administrative staff from both countries. In short, South Koreans were efficient and knew what they were doing most of the time. Thailand was the "Wild South East." No housing, low pay, long hours and the school wanted me to punch in on a clock like some factory worker every morning before smiling to parents and children. Luckily, I loved teaching enough to put up with the hoops and obstacles put before me. I stayed two years and left.

I am not surprised some teachers are being told by Thai schools that they will not receive money for the time they didn't work during the floods. The safety net is for the Thais, not the falang. If you've been there long enough, you should know the pecking order by now. You're at the bottom of it, mate, pure and simple. I've read some comments about Acts of God in the contract. Thai contracts (insert long laugh here) I actually saved my first contract with a Thai school as a memento. It was on legal paper, about five pages long with a lot of clauses. I keep it in a file the way a tourist might keep a keychain purchased on Khao Sarn Road. It's merely a trinket. I'm going to add fuel to the fire for the moaners and whiners by saying they should argue that the floods were not acts of God, but several little acts of demi-gods, namely the Thaksin family. But I digress. If a man destroys a "big bag" that was holding back water, does it become an act of God? I'll let the lawyers sort that one out.

This next point is going to be a bit tricky, but here goes. If you are working in Thailand as a teacher, you're not really a teacher are you. I mean, you wake up and put on a shirt and tie and you may even have a university degree, but you're just there because you like the sun, the cheap beer and entertainment. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll listen. Mother Nature threw you a curveball this year and now suddenly your meager salary can't afford you the lifestyle you expected. Or you had to piss it away on hotels and travel because your school and/or house was inundated. I feel your pain. I really do. I hope you had a backup plan and cash to help you through your lean months, (it was only a few months, right?) a plan that didn't include stomping and sloshing your feet all the way to Suvanabumi saying, "Oh, I'll show you! China will be better!"

I suspect during this time of flooding in Bangkok, school administrators switched off their mobiles and hid. What sweet Thai woman who has done her time at the institution wants to address angry falang? Tell me how many miscommunications from your school you had to deal with, wrong dates for return, general misinformation. Again, I feel your pain. Well, it's up to you to decide whether you'll fight or take flight. I wish you the best.

Jimmy

I would suggest that we remove our European (and U.S) socialist blinkers and learn to accept that the world, or the schools in this instance, do not owe you anything except a wage for teaching. The schools did not force teachers out of Bangkok, the floods did. Perhaps you expect the owners of your accommodation to pay your rent too, or your local restaurant to offer you free food? They won’t, the floods are not their fault either. The schools are not there to ‘take a risk’, they are your employers, full stop. Schools are not your social workers; what happens outside the school is none of their concern and neither should it be. If the transport industry went on strike, would you still expect the school to pay you for not being able to get to school?

No Thais would be offended about my attitude because my previous letter inferred ‘foreigners’ having no social safety net and few rights, not Thais. Some schools are paying and some aren’t? Some are OK and some not? Isn’t that life? All this is OK because it’s Thailand and not some ‘cradle to the grave’ socialist republic that we have got used to in the UK and Europe where we need assistance to wipe our own backsides! Once you’re back in Europe don’t worry, you’ll be the same as everyone else, nobody taking risks, everybody equal and reduced down to the lowest common denominator. Is that what you want; equality, protection, rights?

You’re in the wrong part of the world and need to learn to stand on your own two feet and understand that life is what you make it and not what others make for you. Rely on yourself, learn to look after yourself, plan ahead and you wouldn’t be in the position you’re in now. Isn’t that right? Instead of whinging and complaining that it’s all so unfair.

Keith, the school laughed at him because his request is so preposterous. Why would they pay you for not working? Have you ever tried to explain to a Thai the concept of the welfare state? You know, the part where you don’t work, don’t pay for accommodation and own a colour TV and stereo system? Yes, there is a social security net in place for Thais, my point being that there isn’t for foreigners and so wasn’t it better to be aware of the fact before blowing every months income and then complaining when an emergency arises and you haven’t got any money? I can only speak for myself and everybody I know; the contracts I signed ‘are’ translated into English and if you sign one in Thai and can’t understand a word it says, then what does that say about you? The fact that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on is neither here nor there. If you don’t agree, don’t sign and go back to a country that does write them in plain and easy to understand English. Those ‘are’ the facts, unpalatable, none socialist and common sense ones. At the end of the day there are some easy answers. Move on or move out!

Gareth, yes, I agree, let’s hear from the wonderful schools out there in Thailand. I'm afraid it might be a good country to live in but looking through the letters I think you'll struggle to find the positive aspects of working in Thailand.

James

When you're smiling. The whole world smiles with you. Doesn't anyone teaching here have a great story that they want to share with other readers? Surely the whole Thailand teaching population didn't get stiffed out of its flood pay? Surely not everyone works for a terrible school or a horrible boss or wants to go teach in China because they've had enough of this godawful place? Someone put a smile on our faces - please! Tell us about the school finance officer who rowed through two metres of crocodile-infested floodwater to make sure you received your monthly salary in your hand. Or what about the academic director who called you on the phone every day to make sure you were still alive and assured you that you would be paid in full as soon as the floodwaters subsided. Come on guys! - those stories must be out there. Thailand's a wonderful country to live and work in.

Gareth

In reply to Kevin O’Donnell (Unemployable at age 60, Postbox 23rd March 2011) I am coming up to your age and yes, the opportunities are a little thin on the ground. You ask if there is any way out of this dilemma and again yes, there is.

Firstly and I say this with respect, look like a teacher and not like someone’s favourite uncle – ditch the facial hair! Secondly, you ‘are’ in demand even at 60 – try China! Seriously, the hours are minimal, the students extremely well disciplined and behaved and on a one year contract I’d be surprised if you couldn’t expect to save in the region of 150 to 200k baht. Like you, my home is in Thailand but I doubt whether I’d ever punish myself by working there again. Also, the vast majority of Chinese schools and universities have no objection to you bringing your spouse with you for the length of the contract, (not girlfriends).

Thailand; it is you who will suffer as your children become the poor educational relations of Asia. You are already near, if not at the bottom of the educational Asian league table. While you concentrate on your classroom ‘activities’ and the young ‘20 somethings’, (or the ancient 40’s), your education system collapses around your proverbial ears! It all looks so nice; everybody pretends they’re happy and the relative few are making a lot of money out of it, so why change? In the end Thailand, as disillusioned foreigners leave, your tourist industry collapses and the current crop of teachers grow older and are replaced by smiling backpackers, or recession refugees happy to join the treadmill for their 30k pay, you will stay a developing country.

James