I would like to address the subject of salaries in Thailand. I have probably the best teaching job in Thailand. I work for a university in the north and it is one of the most beautiful campuses I have ever seen. Lakes and gardens, wonderful sports facilities, friendly students and staff. I teach 10 hours/week and edit scientific papers for my Faculty. I have a Thai wife, live on campus, go everywhere on my bike, and am in my sixties. I earn 30,000 B/ month. It's possible to earn more in the public schools but I am a university teacher.

My normal expenses for the month are:
1. Rent 1500B. This is for an on-campus apt. and includes electricity and water. I admit that this is cheap but I've been to apartments in Bangkok that were very nice and were in the 2,500-3,000B range. My wife recently showed me furnished condos in Bangkok that where costing 3000B/month .
2. I give 3000B/ month to my wife. This is her money and she uses it mostly to support her father.
3. Food and drink comes to 9000B/month. This includes, 100B/day for 3 large Chiang which is delivered to my apt. by one of the cleaning ladies - for this service I pay her 400B/ month. 200B/ day covers groceries and necessities : soap, talcum, etc.
4. We pay 240B/ month for cable.
Total: 13,140B/ month approx.

We cook at home because we prefer it and it probably costs more than eating out. I llike to read and the university has a decent library. We go to my wife's village every 2-3 months for 3-4 days and take 2 Thai travelling holidays/ year.

What happens with all the rest of the money? It took 2.5 years but by the end of Sept/07 we will have completed a beautiful, modern, totally paid-for house. Try doing that in Canada!!!!! In 1.5 years we will have the money to go back to Canada,for a vacation, to visit friends and family. This is all on a salery of 30,000B. I make O.T. money editing but none of that money goes into any of these equations. 30,000B/month is peak salery at Thai universities. You want to make money, teach kindergarten and do o.t. Most importantly, quit whining. I've been in Asia 10 years and I wish I'd come 20 years earlier.

Don

Well, I wasn’t going to respond, partly because this site doesn’t seem to like debate…but…yes, I am long term thank you. Kick back? Why would you assume I was talking about teaching…I was talking about your attitude and the Thai style of “Sabai sabai”. If you think you will make a long term living here by teaching you are gravely mistaken (unless you can save 15 – 20,000 baht a month and even that is not enough, unless you are a very young man (do the math). You will have to go into business to do that. You will never get a pension, be able to own land or much else for that matter (you can get great health insurance).

Kicked back? Sure! But, I was talking about attitude, not back-packers. Teaching is easy…are you mad…it’s the hardest job I’ve ever had! I teach more than 25 hrs. per my 40 + hour week, coach speaking contests, and train students in advanced classes at my school and have for more than 4 years. Qualifications? I’ve seen teachers with no degree do better than some who are degreed up the wazoo. So…who is qualified…I have no idea. Your response is based on many assumptions. Why would you have the temerity to think you can organize a group of foreigners in a foreign country? Why in heavens name would you? You would do well to remember you do not have the same rights here you did in the west. Good or bad/right or wrong that is the fact!
I am well aware of the math and fees and “profit” you speak of, naïve? Possibly, but, maybe you need to rethink your allegation…possibly it’s the pot calling the kettle black, hmm? Of course there are many thing wrong here but…this is not our country and it certainly is not our culture…but…it has many things to teach us. We’re so great? The west is currently blowing the crap out of a third world country killing thousands of civilians monthly…wow…that’s a good idea…bad I.Q.

Back to the salary thing…again, we make 7 or more times the average Thai wage (less than 5,000 bt/mos). Thai teachers start at around 8,000 baht. That’s not enough? Do you know what the Thai teachers think about our 30+ thousand baht wage? They resent it. Yes, of course they don’t think about their retirement pension (we don’t get one even after 30 years), low interest loans, “sam pan hah (3,500 baht raise), and many other perks. I guarantee; you will make yourself very unhappy if you forget this is not the west. This of course begs the question; just why are you here?

Last comment…you like the word naïve and use it freely…be sure you use it well and understand who is really naive. Just knowing the facts does not, a wise man make.

Long term ajarn expat

Firstly, why are there so many politically correct, self righteous people who take offence to different opinions, alternative trains of thought and change?

So, who thinks that all western teachers can teach with the same standards, convictions and work ethic? Do you think that someone with degrees in education can’t teach more proficiently than someone with a degree in engineering? Do you think that the teachers intending to stay for a one year working holiday, and who are not concerned about renewing their contracts, are going to apply themselves as much as the teacher who lives here and has a family to support? Do you think Aiwa speakers are as good as Bose speakers? You either pay for the quality or you settle for mediocrity. At least you’ll have some music. Long Term Expat (if you really are that), as far as “kicking back” is concerned, I don’t.

This is truly the ugly face of the west: backpack mentality teaching. I’m building a life here. I am contributing to society as well as providing for my family. Have you ever heard the following? “Wow! Teaching is easy, and I’m so much better at it than the Thai teachers. I don’t need to improve or put in too much effort.” Backpack teaching is such an asset to Thailand, don’t you think? It’s no wonder that schools get non native foreigners to teach English. At least they put in an honest days work and don’t kick back. If you teach then you should be striving to be the best teacher that you possibly can. As far as dictating salaries to schools is concerned, well, I’m not. I’m informing them of what it would cost to employ me, not you. If you’re happy with what you get then stick with it. Good for you. I happen to fall in the category of Both, hence I cost more.

Let’s talk more about money for a moment. Mr. Disappointed, you might learn some things about the Thai education system. My school had, stress had, an English programme. I found out how much the student fees were and deducted the salaries of all foreign teachers. After three years the school made a clear profit of over B3 million. This is a government school mind you. Not bad for a non profit organization. Unfortunately, the programme ended because the school couldn’t entice a replacement native speaker and settled for a Frenchman to save a couple of thousand baht per month (how greedy is that?). Of course none of the students, or I, could understand his accent so the parents complained and the programme was axed. What did the school spend this B3 million on? They acquired several electronic whiteboards. O.k. this is good, but alas only the Thai teachers get to use them. Never mind, it’s still good for the students.

The new director of the school had a Chinese fortune teller come into the school, and from his mystical advice the director had his office extended at the cost of B375, 000 while the students sit on broken chairs. The point is that every school cries “poverty” when recruiting westerners, when in fact they make a nice profit out of you. If you think they only pay what they can afford then you are extremely gullible. Of course they’re entitled to make some money. The schools need money albeit to be wasted on the director gaining face. I don’t have a problem with them making money from me, but I’d like to see the money spent wisely though.

Here are some facts that are not common knowledge, and your school will probably deny (one again, Mr. Disappointed, you might learn something): The government pays its schools a monthly budget of just over B19, 000 to pay for the foreign teacher’s salary. I’ve seen the advice note from the government to the school (fortunately I can read Thai). This amount is our minimum salary by law. If the school wants to pay you more it’s up to them. Do they want Aiwa or Bose? Student’s fees are more for the students that study with you and as a result the schools make money. Did you think they made a loss? In addition, if your school lays you off for any reason other than gross misconduct then you are entitled to severance pay. We do have some human rights here. These are the facts that you probably didn’t know and are now either in shock or denial. As I mentioned before, if you’re in an English Programme then they make millions, and the director is laughing all the way to the bank (let’s not forget how rife corruption is in this country, and how most school directors manage to afford top of the range Mercedes on their salaries). They’ve been playing us like a tune.

So, now you’re no longer ignorant about school monies. Whether you want to be naïve or not now is your own affair.

So, a pattern is emerging. Several vacancies have been on the job page for Chiang Mai for quite some time. This time last year all of those positions would have been snapped up, but now schools can’t seem to fill them. Why is that? There’s a shortage of teachers. The teachers who are still around aren’t taking the poorly paid slave jobs that they were forced to take when there were loads of backpackers sliding into the teaching industry and keeping wages at an appalling level. Some schools have slightly increased salaries and some are simply settling for non natives. One school has a more competitive salary but who’d want to work at a Muslim school? I approached one school that was offering B25,000 per month with a counter proposal of B32,000, to which they replied “mai ow kap”. They filled the position with a teacher new to Thailand who had just arrived from their home country of Ghana. I wish that school luck; they’re going to need it I think.

Come on schools, think about it. You’ve had your time of getting native speakers for pennies. That time is coming to an end. The riff raff have gone. Are you going to settle for non natives with accents so heavy that even I can’t understand their English? Now is the time to face facts and pay a respectable wage.

To all the native speaking teachers out there, hold out! Apply for jobs, but tell them you want more. Tell them their pittance is not sufficient. Now is the time for our solidarity and we can do something about it.

Mr Crazy in Chiang Mai

I recently was a guest speaker at Culver-Stockton Collage. This is a small school in a small town in mid-America. I spoke on ESL teaching in Asia with emphasis on Thailand. I spoke for an hour on topics like accommodations, living conditions, pay, day to day living, traveling through out Asia, so it was generally about living and working in the Asian market. What it takes to get there, what degrees and documents you need, shots, how much money to take and where to get information of all I talked about.

I told them how to prepare for the adventure of teaching in a foreign country. I spoke of the TEFL certificate they would need along with their degree in just about any field they had already chosen. How they could get certified in the US, Mexico, or Asia. How much that would cost. What kind of home work they should be doing now. I suggested how to get their passports ready and what kind of visas they would need and how to ask for the right kind of visa here in the US before going over the big pond. Let them know it's about 17 hours in the air and a 24 hour involvement just to get there. And how much money they would need once they touched their toes down on Asian soil?

I told them about my 8 year history of teaching in Taiwan and Thailand. I told them how I went to Taipei first for 8 months but didn't like the food or the untrusting weather. How I ended up in Thailand' which was my original destination. I told them how I loved teaching in Thailand and the language school I taught at there. How it has 6 week classes with a week off after that time so one could get out and see Southeast Asia easy and cheaply. I told them of the transportation and the best prices of each. Where to go and what to see around Thailand, Cambodia, Burma, Laos, Malaysia, and Vietnam. I talked about the other language schools, universities, International Schools, and privet tutoring where they could find teaching jobs. What papers to look in once in Thailand. Where to stay on the cheap until they scored that great teaching job...the well respected employment of being an "Ajarn" in the Land of Smiles, Thailand.

I thought I painted a pretty picture. The one teacher who invited me to speak seem to really enjoy it. The number of students who came were about 75. A pair of twin girls who sat off to themselves, one teacher and a couple of housewives. One of the housewives said to me after the presentation that she would love to go but didn't think her husband would let her. One student asked what the price of a ticket cost to Thailand so i thought I reached at least one...one. But she said her boy friend had been through there in the armed services and loved it for some reason and she was thinking of giving him a plane ticket over there for his birthday. Oh well I sure enjoyed speaking about the great 8 years I lived and worked in the place that has become my second home and am looking forward to going back in 2 years to work and be with all my friends again in the exotic tropics...ah, Thailand. I miss you.

Terry Hawkins

"Guilty until proven innocent" seems to be the prevailing attitude of Thai educational administrators and bureaucrats towards foreign teachers. After three months in Bangkok studying the potential for foreigners to teach here, I -- and a number of other foreign TEFL teachers I have met -- plan to return to China and elsewhere where foreign teachers are not treated with suspicion and a surprising lack of respect. My credentials are good which is why I was selected as a teacher for one of Thailand's best teaching jobs at one of the top universities. I have thirty years of teaching experience including 5 years at an American university, TEFL certification from a high quality course, bachelors and masters degrees, and many years working in business, education. and the arts in the U.S. as well as in Japan, China, and Egypt.

Why then did the technology and communications department of one of Thailand's most renowned universities present me and other new foreign teachers with a "no compromise" contract demanding:
-- 2 months notice required of intention to quit the position,
-- only 3 times per year when leaving was allowable,
-- and (worst of all), if the teacher decides to leave before the year contract ends, they are expected to repay 1/2 (one half) of all payments received from the university?

Further, no provision was made for the expenses and difficulties of starting a new life in a new country. Contrast that with the many schools in China which compete to offer foreigners a free apartment outfitted with broadband and cable TV, roundtrip airfare to their home country, one-month holiday pay plus national holidays, and a salary that is normally at least double the typical local income. As one qualified but disgruntled foreign teacher wrote on the very valuable and informative TEFL website, www.ajarn.com , "Why would anyone come here to teach?"

Repeatedly, foreign teachers have complained to me that Thai administrators have little concept of a teacher's needs or rationale for teaching in a foreign country. Teachers are expected to punch in at 9 am and out at 5 pm -- a schedule which was explained to me by a department director as "only fair and what was expected of Thai staff." This uncompromising administrator had no interest whatsoever in hearing arguments -- "take it or leave it." I was advised that "In Thailand, no one negotiates with the leaders -- it would be considered disrespectful. " I would argue that the most successful contracts are "win-win" compromises. This attitude seems to be both short-sighted and destructive of morale. Sadly, too, teachers find their students are poorly prepared and unmotivated. to learn. Basic study skills are lacking among even the highest level university students who consistently neglect to do their homework or prepare for tests. Witness a meeting I attended in which the chair (a computer expert) reported students had done poorly on their English exams and asked for a quantitative report of numbers of words learned by students. The foreign English teachers tried to argue that language learning was qualitative, not quantitative. Neither side understood the others' point-of-view and, as there was no discussion, an impasse was reached in which both sides were offended.

Government bureaucrats have attempted to address the problems by imposing a steadily increasing number of restrictions on foreign teachers. When I attempted to find work at a well-known private language school franchise, I was told that in order to begin legal teaching work, it would be necessary to change my non-immigrant B visa to the new school (1-2 weeks), obtain a teacher's license (45 days), and then wait for a work permit (1-2 weeks). At best, it would be 1 to 2 months before the paperwork could be completed. This after the expense of having to leave the country to obtain the non-immigrant visa.

"Teach at an international school," many people said, "Teachers there receive high salaries." But in nearly the same breath, I was also told about crackdowns and interrogations made of foreign teachers in recent years. A few criminals had slipped into the international schools and now governmental officials are hotly pursuing foreigners with falsified credentials. It seems "a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel." With the talk of bombings, shootings, and revolution in the air; censorship of movies and websites; and the daily experience of higher prices charged to foreigners, Thailand seems to be an increasingly uncomfortable place for foreigners to stay.

For those foreigners willing to devote their time and energies to quality teaching, it can be a bitterly disillusioning experience. With the salaries going lower and the benefits (medical and other insurance, housing, etc.) fewer, and the cost of living increasing, teachers who have been here for years are now leaving the country. Faced with contracts like the ones I have been presented with over the past three months, few quality teachers would choose to remain. Thailand has options as it is such a beautiful country with lovely, intelligent people. I urge school administrators and government bureaucrats to look to the 21st Century hiring practices of Human Resource departments in international businesses and enlightened governments in other countries. Please -- understand that a foreigner comes to a new country to experience the best, not the worst, of another culture. Understand that increasing restrictions is a form of imprisonment and that most people will wish to escape authoritarian practices. Understand that if you treat an experienced, quality professional from the start with suspicion, you encourage criminals and mediocrity and will lose the best people. Understand that teaching requires considerable experience and training to achieve quality and therefore should be compensated and respected accordingly.

As for me, I'm going back to China next week -- where I feel physically safer and am a much more valued commodity. I would love to return to Thailand one day when and if attitudes change.

Can anybody please define "qualified teacher"? Qualified by law or qualified by rights? People who hold degrees are deemed qualified by law not by their degree. People who do not have degrees in education are not qualified teachers in a western country but they are here. Education is an expensive luxury that I was able to afford. I do not wish to stay in Thailand for a long time as I feel the schools do not pay enough and aren't really in the running to compete. If you want to pay peanuts then you'll get monkeys. If you want to put your degree to good use then you should work in a western country or at least a developed country. Those with degrees who complain about teachers without degrees, unless you have a B.Ed you are not qualified yourselves. There are plenty of jobs in the western world so why aren't you filling them?

The people with degrees have great opportunities to work anywhere in the world so why have they chosen Thailand? Have they chosen to drop out of their own society to mix with their inferior fellow teachers especially when they are trying to become the supreme educators? Do they feel like they are someone here? The West is booming so why not stay at home with your home comforts and leave the pennies for the non qualified folk to fight over? Thailand is a wonderful place that everybody enjoys for their own reasons so why do people have to complain and whinge about each other here? Are their minds still functioning like a western busybody who looks over his or her neighbors' fence? Sad sad sad is all I can say.

If you want to be a real teacher and get a real teaching job then ply your trade in the West where the big bucks are that's if you really are any good at teaching and you are really qualified. Thailand would be better place if people would leave their Western attitudes at home and start taking the approach of the Thai people and tending to the needs of the students and not their own self-importance.

Barry Parkes

Master G and A went to jail for having fake degrees! Did their lawyers have real degrees? I mean, those guys don't have criminal records (presumably), and are basically good citizens, why couldn´t they just get probation and credit for time served? Maybe they should have bought law degrees instead. They could have represented themselves, and would have gotten better results from the sound of it. Master A could have displayed his showmanship in the courtroom, Perry Mason style, i.e. "I would like to direct the jury's attention to the evidence, namely my allegedly fake degree. Now I ask you, is that not real? I mean, feel it for yourselves, the quality, the workmanship." Then he could have had his university professors and his mom as witnesses for the defense, along with newspaper clippings and photos of himself at graduation.

The evidence would be compelling until-at the last second- the prosecution calls in Mr P, star witness for the prosecution! You would storm in to the courtroom, and Master A would turn around, in horror, like his worst nightmare just came true as he realizes his fate is sealed. Mr P. could even write a book titled, what else "Master A, Star Witness for the Prosecution in the Thailand Fake Degree Scandal" with a big grinning photo of Mr P. and a scowling Master A, in shackles and chains, and then it would become a made for TV movie, Mr P. would have been set for life.

Seriously, does Mr.P visit them in prison? And presumably, they will be immediately deported upon release, or else they could go work at Sarasas I guess. Since they aren't teachers, maybe they could work at 7-11 or Carrefour, would the court object, since they aren't misrepresenting themselves? Master A could offload milk and rotate the yoghurt, etc, and fill in as a cashier to get more hours. The ultimate question is, why were they so determined to be teachers anyway? They could have been lawyers (but then the fake degree problem comes up again), so why not just do whatever it is they did back home? Perhaps take up a trade, join the postal service, drive a bus, cut grass. I mean it's all honorable work, heck I even moonlighted at a Pad Thai stand until I got my first teaching gig. And Master A speaks Thai, maybe he could be a proofreader or a translator of literature or science textbooks, write speeches for the junta, anything, what was so compelling about teaching?

Maybe they could hire a good immigration lawyer and apply for political asylum or refugee status, they could prove they were fleeing persecution, strife or a civil war in their own country, I mean the options are limitless. The process would take years, in the meantime they would have to be allowed to remain in Thailand until their cases were resolved and they could drive a taxi in the meanwhile under some kind of temporary refugee worker status, or maybe they would have to go on the dole and collect unemployment from the Thai govt., in any case there is always a way!

Ajarn ba ba bor bor

Dear WB it appears it is time for you to, how did you put it? And I quote "qualified folks can pack-up-and-go or shut-up-and-stay ---it is that simple! " Apparently you did not read the latest interview with the MoE in Chaingmai. The MoE does not require 4 year degrees. A teacher's license is not required for foreigners to teach English in Thailand. As for the whining about having student loans, Japan and China both pay about $2,000 a month for their teachers or if you need to make that kind of money, lets see. You could of always stayed in America. Who in their right mind would come to a "developing nation" and expect to earn a salary that would enable them to repay students loans that require American dollars. Once again too much education and not enough common sense.

Here is some information that should bring some hope for those of us who have had very successful careers in America without a 4 year degree. Last week I renewed my one year non-b visa (for the second time). I also renewed my work permit(for the second time). I do not have a teachers license, as it is not required under Thai law. I do not have a 4 year degree, it's not required by Thai law. I do not have a celta/trinity, it is not required by Thai law. Yet, here I am a "legal" teacher in Thailand. So those of you with fake degrees, burn them, you don't need them. Be honest about your education level, show a little bit of self respect.

If you can't get a job in Bangkok without a degree (this is only required by the schools, not the MoE) then move on out to the rural areas and help some people who really need it. If you are a good teacher. If you can get the students speaking English,then it won't matter to the school that you don't have all the certificates hanging above your desk. Work hard be a good teacher. Prove to these people that we are capable of teaching their children.

All of your pervs out there. LEAVE THE CHILDREN ALONE. Seek some professional help with your problems, buy a blow up doll. Anything, just leave the children alone. We foreigners are supposed to be here to help these children NOT EXPLOIT THEM. I think if Thailand would give the death penalty or surgical penis removal of people caught molesting children, it would put an end to this sort of thing. In fact I may write a letter to the government suggesting this sort of action.Finally, enjoy the short vacation that we have now. Take a trip, get refreshed and come back next term and be the best teacher that you can
be. Peace and love to everyone.

I have been reading the postbox since it's inception. I find it an interesting read. I enjoy reading the opinions of both the qualified and the not so qualified. I can understand both sides' arguments. An example: At schools in the big cities where the students have a good command of the 4 English skills and are taught by the same native speaker 3 or 4 times a week, I believe the teacher must be well qualified. But for schools in rural areas where a teacher will visit 25 different classes a week and the students are still trying to get a grip on speaking the days of the week, months of the year, basic fruits and vegetables, cannot count in English above 10 and have nearly no reading and writing skills, perhaps the teacher in this school could be less qualified. Now Thailand wants all teachers to have teaching credentials from their country of origin. This is a bit outrageous. Thailand (a developing nation) is equating their education system with that of the world leaders.

Regarding the article from the Pattaya newspaper, where the police chief says "most of these foreigners only have a secondary education", this man fails to understand that in the U.S. students are required to attended school until the 12th grade. Here in Thailand only until the 9th grade. In the U.S. the student must actually pass the exams. Here in Thailand if they don't pass they are given an easier exam. In the U.S. students must actually attend class. Here in Thailand as long as they are registered with the school and pay their fees they will receive their diploma. So once again we have an official of the Thai government equating Thailand's poor education system to that of the leader of the world.

So it boils down to this. If I am a foreigner I must have teaching credentials from my country of origin to teach English in Thailand. If I am a Thai, I only have to have paid my fees to the Teachers School and I can teach English. I don't even have to be able to speak English, I only have to have the credentials. What a sad state for the Thai Education System to be in. Good Luck Thailand

Richard Burgess